<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sounds
like we need more conversation and specific definitions, estimates of the fixed
costs and the operating costs. Accounting is not my strength so somebody
needs to facilitate so we can all understand the numbers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>With
respect to 979 – I have a call in to Tim (unfortunately he is out of
town) and will try to meet with him to flesh out his proposal. In
general, I agree that it would be “easier” to work with 976 but the
aircraft is not up to a reasonable IFR standard. Let’s see what kind of a
fix EE might be willing to apply here. Also, the question of what equity
(if any) we would have in the aircraft is important. If we pay the note, the
maintenance, upgrades, and upkeep for 5 yrs and then end up with nothing…
I’m not sure this is a good deal. I also agree with opening
membership to any private pilot… but individual members should need to go
through an application process and member vote. We can talk about this when we
discuss bylaws. In my personal opinion I think new members should be subject to
a credit check – I think it is a reflection of a person’s
character.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bob
Irving<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
eefc-core-bounces@workingcode.com [mailto:eefc-core-bounces@workingcode.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>toddmbs@yahoo.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, April 06, 2009 12:17
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> eefc-core@workingcode.com;
Steve Gordon<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Fixed vs. Operating
Costs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div id=yiv325058197>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I agree. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>This should be fairly easy to break out, and I don't
think we'll have to reinvent the wheel. We will simply have to break
out all the costs incurred with owning and operating the plane, and put
each cost under the list of either Fixed Cost (which are incurred whether
the plane flys or sits there) or Operating Cost (incurred when you
turn the prop on) and figure each column accordingly. A
couple will overlap, such as inspections, but that is only dependent on
how many hours we fly it in a year.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>As far the leaseback goes, I think it's clear that
there is no need to think about a leaseback. I just had to hear Sean's
take on it. With this many potential members, the cons outweigh the
pros to do a leaseback. With even only 10 members, the fixed costs
should cover fairly reasonably and I'm not concerned about meeting a minimum
number of hours.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>My only concern is in regards to the plane itself:
the soon upcoming overhaul, the upgrade from a "trainer plane" to a
viable club plane, what Tim's plan is with the ownership and how much we'll
be overpaying if he keeps the plane after the note is paid off,
etc. That being said, after some thought, I am thinking that this path
is probably the easiest, least risky, and cheapest way to get started.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Also, I would vote to open the club up to any
private pilot at LWM after we get established with the first group of Eagle
pilots. Sure, why not?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Todd<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sun, 4/5/09, Steve Gordon <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><steve@media-phile.com></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
From: Steve Gordon <steve@media-phile.com><br>
Subject: Fixed vs. Operating Costs<br>
To: eefc-core@workingcode.com<br>
Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 11:37 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thank you James for setting up this mailing list so
quickly, for the<br>
thorough minutes from today's meeting, and for the very detailed squawk list<br>
on 976. I am extremely excited to see the progress made already.<br>
<br>
<br>
First I have a question I would like to pose to the group. EAA chapter
106<br>
which is based at LWM has a roster of over 200 members (myself included).<br>
Some EAA members may be interested in joining a flying club (I spoke with<br>
one today who is actively looking for a club). Would anyone have an<br>
objection to announcing our forming club to the EAA folks? Perhaps we
can<br>
pick up a few more members.<br>
<br>
<br>
Second point: During today's meeting I detected a bit of ambiguity regarding<br>
what should go in the fixed cost column and what should go in the operating<br>
costs. Here's an excerpt from AOPA's FAQ on flying club costs I want to<br>
throw out to the group for consideration:<br>
<br>
" Problems frequently stem from the fact that some clubs try to recover
a<br>
portion of their fixed costs along with the direct operating costs. This<br>
often forces the total hourly rate, which should equal the direct hourly<br>
operating cost, higher than necessary. It may also compel members to pay for<br>
a minimum number of hours per month whether or not they fly. The result is a<br>
vicious cycle with members flying less because the hourly rate is high<br>
which, in turn, pushes the hourly rate higher because members fly less. In<br>
some areas, a spate of poor weather may be all that it takes to reduce<br>
flying hours and begin the vicious cycle."<br>
<br>
The above paragraph articulates a minor concern of mine. During today's<br>
meeting we entertained the idea of lease-back as a means of meeting an<br>
assumed minimum number of hours required to meet the basic costs to keep the<br>
aircraft airworthy. The idea of having to meet a minimum number of
hours<br>
concerns me. In my humble opinion, if an aircraft needs to meet a
minimum<br>
hour requirement to balance the budget, then something is in the wrong<br>
column. The club should be able to keep that aircraft airworthy whether
or<br>
not it leaves the ground.<br>
<br>
In order that we do not fall into the "vicious cycle", I submit
that only<br>
those costs that are directly proportional to the number of hours flown<br>
should be included in the operating costs. These should be limited to<br>
fuel/oil, overhaul, and any other maintenance directly tied to hours flown<br>
(oil changes, tires, vacuum pump, magnetos, and routine avionics<br>
maintenance). All other costs, maintenance or otherwise, should be
covered<br>
by monthly dues. Keeping fixed costs out of operating costs will
produce a<br>
much more predictable budget and keep us from scrambling to meet some<br>
artificial minimum flight hours.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
-Steve<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
eefc-core mailing list<br>
<a
href="http://us.mc1113.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eefc-core@workingcode.com"
target="_blank">eefc-core@workingcode.com</a><br>
<a href="https://www.workingcode.com/mailman/listinfo/eefc-core"
target="_blank">https://www.workingcode.com/mailman/listinfo/eefc-core</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>